Marriage by the Fire

[00:00:00] Aicila: Welcome to this week's episode of Business as Unusual, where we dive into changing the user experience of therapy for men.

[00:00:08] Aicila: In my chat with Ian and Karyl Vassilaros, the therapists who founded Marriage by the Fire, we talked about how marriage counseling isn't just for fixing problems, but improving already good relationships. .

[00:00:23] Aicila: We also explored how counseling can be more inclusive for men and actionable steps couples can take to strengthen their bond. If you're looking to elevate your relationship, you might want to stay tuned.

[00:00:33] Aicila: Hello. Welcome to Business As Unusual. This week I am talking to Ian and Karyl Vassilaros of Marriage by the Fire. Welcome to the show.

[00:00:43] Karyl: Thank you.

[00:00:44] Aicila: What is something you wish more people knew about marriage counseling?

[00:00:49] Karyl: Do you want to take that one, Ian?

[00:00:53] Ian: Um, so in general, one of the things,

[00:00:57] Ian: I know one of the things that we've talked about that we [00:01:00] wish people would know is that counseling isn't just about let's fix the problem. Right? Like I'll get couples occasionally they'll come to me like, you know, we're doing well, but we feel like we can do better. Better, how can we do better? I'm like, yes, those are some of my favorite clients, right?

[00:01:14] Ian: This is great. Come in, let me help you be better because I can take wherever you're at and then help you improve off of that. That's one of the things I wish I wish people knew is that they think about counseling, like, Oh, I just have this major problem. I'm melting down time to go in and get help.

[00:01:28] Ian: Instead of like, Hey, let's get some nudges along the way. I can get help with the small things before they come huge. And then and then get help with the good things and make them better. That, that's one of the

[00:01:38] Aicila: Yeah.

[00:01:39] Karyl: I absolutely agree. And the other thing that like I've really kind of noticed and we've talked about is that when it comes to therapy, one of the reasons why we approach therapy, the way that we approach it is that we really are about getting therapy done. movement, but we have to partners. And so therapy user friendly for women. And when have a lot of these [00:02:00] men sitting in front of us with their spouses, the men usually and they would just kind just didn't, they didn't In fact, I think research showed that only 20% of men feel like they can actually open up in therapy because the experience isn't attractive to them or it does just doesn't work as well for them.

[00:02:20] Karyl: And so I, it's not designed for them. It's, it's really therapy is generally more dive deep, get into the emotions kind of You know, parse it, take it apart, and figure it out. And and men want action, and they want to be understood, and they also want to understand better so that they know what to do.

[00:02:37] Karyl: And so, that's really one of the things that we want people to think about, is like, the user experience for therapy, for marriage, for anything, is going to be completely different between one person and the next. And so, in marriage, in therapy, consider both sides of it, and then figure out how to make it work for both of them.

[00:02:54] Aicila: That leads us a little bit to, you know, we're going to talk about, you know, creating a better, better user experience for [00:03:00] men in therapy and both in individual and marriage counseling. And do you have a, a story or a case study that you could share that kind of illustrates that topic or the

[00:03:10] Ian: Yeah, I totally can. In fact, now, so I've, this is sort of representative of multiple times. I've had this kind of experience, but this one particular experience I had, I was, I was in couples therapy, right. And, and talking to a couple and the wife had been talking a little bit. She's like, I just, I just don't feel like you're connecting to me emotionally. And the guy looked at me kind of deer in the headlights. Look, it is like, look, I speak English. Okay. I understand every one of the words that she just said. I have no idea what she just said. I don't understand at all what she's talking about or how to fix it or anything. I'm completely lost here. Right.

[00:03:48] Ian: This is what happens is that a lot of times therapy is very much focused on the emotions. And the women are, are usually we're kind of socialized our, our culture and that's not just our [00:04:00] culture. Largely women tend to be more socialized, be able to talk emotionally and therapy is Designed to be that way to be able to talk more about emotion.

[00:04:08] Ian: So men frequently kind of get left in the lurch with this kind of thing. It's like, that's, that's not how they communicate. That's not how they work through things. And so when a wife says something like, Oh, I just don't feel emotionally connected to the guys. Like I've done this, this, this, this, I've done all these things you've asked and you don't feel emotionally connected, what's missing, I've, I'm completely lost here.

[00:04:25] Aicila: Yeah.

[00:04:26] Karyl: Yeah.

[00:04:27] Aicila: Well, and that that makes a lot of sense because there is definitely, a lot of things that discourage men from connecting emotionally or understanding that as an aspect of their lives and encourage women and the other. And there's, you know, so we don't have to get into that. Can you break that down a little bit?

[00:04:48] Aicila: So, so if that, if that person's in therapy and they, they're like, I can't, I can't I don't know what she's talking about. Like, I understand her words and they don't create, a friend of mine used to say, it's like [00:05:00] blue fish tuba. Those three words, I know what all of them mean, but when you say that, it gives me no actual information, right?

[00:05:06] Aicila: So what, in that, in that situation with that couple, are there a few things that you would consistently do? Are there things you can recommend if there's a couple listening or someone who's been in culturalized to be less emotionally connected, that, that would give them some sense of, Oh, this is something I could do when I hear that.

[00:05:24] Karyl: I can answer a little bit. What comes to my mind is the way that I see it, and I'm a very visual person when it comes to how I communicate. I see it as taking, you know, telling couples, like, when you come into therapy, this isn't about, you know, you're not on a war path. Like, Therapy should be a place where you can come and say I'm laying down my arms.

[00:05:43] Karyl: I'm trying to figure this out Let's put it on the table I need you to help me understand the situation better and how to communicate more effectively But I also need to know how do I move forward and and that also how do I help my husband or my wife? understand My struggle and not invalidate it, but also not make it the whole [00:06:00] thing. And so it's like putting everything on the table. If I'm having a problem, we want to push our problems away. And so if I see my spouse as the problem, I'm pushing them away. And no matter what, as long as I feel there's a problem, they need to get out of the way. They need Stop doing what they're doing until I feel like things are okay. So when it comes to therapy, put it out there and trust that your therapist has the ability to kind of pull it apart and interpret it and find an effective way to help your partner understand it. And there's nothing wrong with you not being able to communicate as effectively with your partner as you'd like. I know like one of the complaints that we always laugh about, I'm like, my goodness, Ian, Oh my goodness, I just heard this and this is what we're gonna do. I'm like, hmm, I told you that. You know, before, and you didn't listen to me. He's like, well, no, in the mouth of two or three people. I mean, I can understand it now. And that kind of tends to be the way it is because we all have a different way. Our words may be the same for something like I say love, but it might mean [00:07:00] something slightly different to you or coming into you or from me than what you understand. And so that's what the, the therapist has the ability to sit there and take this approach where they can help communicate effectively for both partners to create a solution.

[00:07:16] Karyl: And one of the things that I've loved working with men, and I see it so often is that when they finally like, Oh my goodness, no, I'm feeling heard. And I'm also starting to understand. And then we tell them, this is what you can do. And when you give them a step that they can do, they light up. It's like a kid in a candy store.

[00:07:32] Karyl: They're so excited. Like, man, I can do this because they feel excited about being successful with their partner.

[00:07:37] Aicila: Mm

[00:07:38] Ian: And, and I'll add to on that, like as, as the clinician, like when I, when I'm in this kind of situation one of the things I do is I'll illustrate like, because, and let's be clear, there's bad faith partners but the, the truth of the matter is most of the people that come and see me genuinely love their partner and they're genuinely trying to make things better.

[00:07:58] Ian: Right? So that's, that's the [00:08:00] framework from which I usually work, unless I have clear evidence that it's, you know, counter to that. Right? So,

[00:08:05] Ian: so with that, what I'll do is I'll, I'll assume this because oftentimes the wives feel because I don't feel emotionally connected with, does he even love me? And so I'll ask, I'll be very direct like, Hey husband, do you love your wife? It's like, Oh my gosh, so much. And I'll look to her, like, do you believe him?

[00:08:21] Ian: And she's like, well, kind of maybe. And I'm like, okay, so here's the thing. You don't feel those words are true. Right. But that doesn't mean the words aren't true. We speak, we communicate differently. Right. And I could talk about love languages, right? That's a whole nother topic, but. The thing is, I'm like, look, for now, I want you to take that at face value, accept that he loves you, but accept that you're struggling to feel that love.

[00:08:45] Ian: And they'll both start nodding like, Oh yes. Okay. I can accept that. That's fine. I can run with that. You get that foundation stone and then you can start moving forward because as soon as the wife can accept, Oh, he does love me. Even if I'm not feeling it, that's a, those are two different issues that goes [00:09:00] so far we want to create the belief that Both parties are good faith actors, except when they're not.

[00:09:06] Ian: But that usually takes a little bit of time to come out. Right. But you start with that. You start with that framework. So starting with that framework allows that to be communicated. Clearly it starts the process. And then where we end, I'm jumping ahead a few steps. Cause it's always different for every couple.

[00:09:20] Ian: Right. But what we do is we'll say, okay, what are some of the things that he could do? If he did this, this would tell you, Oh, I feel love. She's like, Oh, if he did the dishes more often. Okay, do you hear that? Right. And it's like, Oh, I know what to do. Men are so action oriented that for them to have a concrete assignment, like, Oh, if I do this thing, that'll help. Right. And so that's a huge part of what we do is I take this general thing. I don't feel emotionally connected and rather than diving into the emotions and say, well, why do you think that is? And blah, blah, blah.

[00:09:51] Ian: We, we drilled that, we build that foundation. Let's accept up front. This is okay. And then we find concrete assignments that the woman says, Oh yes, I feel loved. And the [00:10:00] man's like, I can do that. And then boom, magic happens.

[00:10:03] Aicila: I can hear that. I'm, I'm actually usually the actioner. Like, that's my, I'm like, don't waste my time with those emotional things. Just tell me what you want done. I got you.

[00:10:14] Aicila: I always, I feel a sense of kinship around that. What are two or three tips that you could give people who are maybe struggling in that kind of dynamic or in a great place and want to be in a better place in their relationship?

[00:10:29] Karyl: Do you want to take this one Ian?

[00:10:30] Ian: Oh, sure. So, so first off, I've been, we'll say as therapist therapy is great for everybody, right? So, so go in, talk to someone getting a third party is awesome. So if you're not doing that, go do it, right? You're not looking to dig up problems. You can go in and say, Hey, we're doing great. We want to do better.

[00:10:46] Ian: All right. Awesome. Okay. So you can do that. But once you're in therapy, I would say, make sure that both parties, clearly define their goals. What am I trying to accomplish? And make sure that's clear with the therapist, because then the [00:11:00] therapist can help them move forward on those goals.

[00:11:02] Ian: That makes a huge difference for people because frequently and we talk about this, there's something called initiator bias, usually not always, but usually the women is the one to bring in to therapy first. Right. She's the one saying we need to go to therapy. This is a problem. And so she's sitting here thinking about these problems and the man he's thinking about probably a different set of problems Not that he's not thinking about issues or trying to work through stuff He is but he's not seeing the same thing and not being as concerned about it or whatever And so she's thinking about these things she initiates the therapy and then comes in with this whole story of This is what i'm seeing and this one and the man's like like a lot of men feel ambushed because you know, this happens.

[00:11:39] Ian: And so you got this initiator bias of the woman starts off and comes into therapy and lays out the whole thing. And then it's easy to frame, Oh, well, here's the woman's problem. Okay, man, what do you need to do about this? But when both come in and say, here are my goals, woman can say, yeah, I've been thinking about this.

[00:11:53] Ian: And then we say to the man, well, what are your goals in this? What do you want to do? Make it really clear. It could be the same thing. It could not be, but, but [00:12:00] don't just say, Oh, whatever she wants. Like, what do you want to get out of this? And, and having that clarity makes a zillion miles of difference in, in counseling.

[00:12:09] Ian: So that's, that's one of the things that, that we recommend.

[00:12:13] Aicila: Well that sounds like it also creates like an emotional responsibility for the, the process for both parties, as opposed to one party sort of just saying, oh, I'm going to go along, but rather saying, okay, we are each emotionally accountable, accountable for the relationship and for the experience that we have in this process.

[00:12:32] Karyl: Yeah.

[00:12:32] Aicila: And that feels really important because if you're not, if, if, if you're, you know, anytime you're in a situation where someone says, Oh, I'll just go along with what this person wants, it means that you're abdicating your responsibility and, and, you know, as well as your participation and your, your, any sort of like authority that you have.

[00:12:50] Aicila: And so that, that seems like it would be. Less effective if you're just kind of like going along in the wind instead of actually taking responsibility for your participation. So, [00:13:00]

[00:13:00] Karyl: Right, right.

[00:13:01] Aicila: tip.

[00:13:01] Ian: Accountability is a huge deal.

[00:13:03] Karyl: Right?

[00:13:04] Aicila: Like, yeah.

[00:13:05] Karyl: Yeah. No. Cause we want them to come in feeling like they have control over themselves rather than feeling. Cause if I, if I'm a passive partner, if I'm one that I have no clue as to why my partner is struggling and no matter how he's explained it, I'm still lost. And he's like, Hey, I can't do this anymore.

[00:13:19] Karyl: We have to go to counseling. Well, fine. I'll go to counseling with you.

[00:13:23] Karyl: Well then I'm being dragged along and I'm willing to go. to help make things better, but it's really all like I'm basing the growth and the trajectory upon his, my partner's feelings about the situation. So as long as he, as soon as he is sufficiently satisfied or, or content with it, then, okay, then I'm good. But then I stay in this blind spot. And I also stay in a very uncomfortable spot because therapy tends to bring out a lot of the garbage. So a lot of these, you know, when I go to therapy, I'm talking about the mess. my mind, even the messy thoughts about my spouse. And so my, my [00:14:00] partner, if he's going to be offended by it, then that creates another battle ground in therapy that I'm just trying to get, I need to work through all of these things.

[00:14:06] Karyl: It's a mess for me. And if my husband comes in, and he's like, well, I'm just here to make you happy. And if you're getting angrier and You're judging me and you're shaming me and you're blaming me for everything. Then I don't feel like I can do anything. There's no success here. But if he comes in with the understanding, like, Hey, we're just putting our messy stuff out here.

[00:14:22] Karyl: We want to figure out as a team, how do we make marriage work better? How do we negotiate peace? How do we create harmony and how do we move forward and, and, and continue on this path of really, you know, having a thriving successful marriage.

[00:14:36] Aicila: Yeah. What does success look like for you guys?

[00:14:40] Karyl: Oh, with our clients?

[00:14:43] Ian: in our marriage.

[00:14:45] Aicila: You know, I was, well, I mean, I think when what you're up to, whether, whether it's in terms of the work that you're doing or your business, like, you know, is there something you'd like to see happen in the world or is it very much more focused on individual clients? [00:15:00] Yeah.

[00:15:01] Karyl: the things, like, I'm really motivated to change the way that we talk about marriage issues and how we help people get better with them or improve their marriage. And this is why we came up with the idea that happy marriages happen by design, not by chance. Rather than going into this marriage and then what, what, what we often see is that it's what we call a master mule versus mutual masters marriages. The master mule one partner feels, and it could be that both partners end up being in this position. They feel like they don't qualify for the marriage anymore. They feel like in order to make the marriage work, they have to continually strive to make their partner happy enough that they don't get rejected and kicked out of the marriage. And so we really want to just change the way instead of looking at and saying, Oh, well, there's. You know, men are bad or this is a problem. Let's look at it and say, these are individuals that are struggling. Let's talk about all of these issues in a productive way that actually helps the situation and not harms the individual. And [00:16:00] if we keep sitting and then Ian said something to me once, he says, you know, this is a time in the world where we have more therapists. And yet depression and anxiety and everything is getting worse. And we have to, we have to wonder why. And somebody once told me, he goes, you know, you have to think about it.

[00:16:16] Karyl: It's more of an anti cognitive behavioral therapy approach at times, where we dig into the problems, but we don't really learn how to, You know, move forward in life. And that's really one of the things that we really push is like work, work on moving forward and getting traction as fast as possible.

[00:16:33] Karyl: Cause the more you move and the more you the more you actually start engaging in life and feeling that you're living and thriving, the happier you are and the easier it is to heal from some of these things that sometimes they're childhood traumas that carry into our marriage.

[00:16:46] Ian: Right. Like for us, success looks like when I'm doing therapy, right. And I'm helping a couple when both of them release their victim mindset. Right. And not all of us have been victimized to some degree or another. I'm not saying victimization doesn't happen [00:17:00] some, some more, some less, right. This happens. It's life.

[00:17:02] Ian: And I'm not dismissing or minimizing those who've been victimized. I want to make that very, very clear, right? But the victim mindset is another thing entirely. That's where I root down in the areas that I feel like I have been victimized, or maybe actually have been victimized, and it starts to define me, and I become more powerless, more depressed, more anxious.

[00:17:23] Ian: Anxious, unable to move forward in life, more paralyzed, and it doesn't help. And so what we do is we acknowledge like, yeah, you're right. You know, your, your wife did do these things. Your husband did do these things. We're not pretending these things didn't happen. Right. But do you want to be stuck in that spot forever? Right. Do you want to be just constantly circling around this thing, or do you want to be able to move forward? And the answer is in very like, well, I don't want to be stuck in this forever. Like, right. It sucks. Does it? It's really painful. Like, I don't want to be feeling this forever. Right. Okay. So in order to do that, you have to let go of the victim mindset and start embracing movement.

[00:17:56] Ian: Like. What can I do? I can't change the things that have [00:18:00] happened to me But I can change how I respond in the moment and I can start gearing towards a future that I desire That is what success looks like right in so many ways And so what we do is we help both men and women Find their way to be able to move forward by helping them translate in counseling like let's talk to each other back to the whole I don't feel emotionally connected Let's get out of the victim mindset, right?

[00:18:21] Ian: Not implying that that statement is a victim mindset, but let's make sure it's not there. And then let's get forward movement so that both parties can feel connected in a way that's appropriate for them. That's what success looks like.

[00:18:34] Aicila: Yeah. I I worked with a gentleman a few years ago. And he taught, he is a black man, older, who told me about an African tradition that I thought was really beautiful where they talk about when you, when you have to go through the past in some ways, there's someone in the community or some people in the community kind of walk with you emotionally, obviously, and they help you to work it out.

[00:18:59] Aicila: They stay with [00:19:00] you while you deal with your pain. And then they come with you. And they sort of call you back to the present to bring them a learning, but not the, the burden. And, you know, cause I think that's the other thing that I've seen is people haven't experienced it because we, we, we live in a very much like, you know, push through don't deal that, that part of the, the ease with it's a victim mentality can occur as partially because. we don't necessarily actually confront the pain and so the pain is still living in us and it's still informing us. And we do feel powerless and so both parts you have to be able to face it and there's a point where i think you are a little like focused. And then you know i like that the tradition you have someone help you come into the present and say all right this is what i learned and but but the a lot of times we want to skip i think that that part because which leaves us in a longer challenge i guess around it

[00:19:53] Karyl: Right, right. Well, we kind of get stuck in that in the beginning. The trauma happens because we don't know how to resolve it, understand [00:20:00] it or move from it. And so, and I think that was a beautiful story. I mean, that just illustrates it so well, because I mean, what we look at is like, let's move forward. forward. Let's so usually we start with clients and they come in and they frame what's going on right now. And then within the first session, we already start giving them, we do a lot of psychoeducation, we start giving them some solutions, some movement, because we want to see movement, that movement is going to really get them further than anything else. And so that is, it allows them to say, Hey, there's some, there's breakdown and there's some struggles and we don't dismiss it, but we say, Hey, let's put it in, let's, let's put it in a healthy frame. And then we want them to start living life where they can move forward as much as possible. And then when something gets there and it gets stuck, some, something from the past comes up and says, Hey, I'm knocking on your door.

[00:20:45] Karyl: I need attention right now. Then we take the time to kind of go into it and say, okay, but you really only need to dig into the past to the extent that, that You well, I guess it's like if there's a, if the past is a 10 foot wall, brick wall in front of me [00:21:00] and I can get over a nine foot wall, I only need to go down one foot unless I desire to go down further to gain more understanding of myself. But that's really what we want to do. Go as far as you can move forward. forward. Get life going. Your future, your present, everything. This is what we really want to live for. Depression keeps us in the past. Anxiety keeps us from the future. And so let's, let's get that movement. And and also Ian, there was one thing that you were talking about with the individuals and that's one of the reasons we, we created what we call Ash. for marriages, Which is autonomy, synonymy and harmony. And we believe that a healthy marriage has two thriving individuals who are autonomous. And we find that so many people get married and they don't know what they're supposed to be anymore. They start discarding themselves, erasing themselves, and then they start becoming a failing husband or a failing wife or a depressed wife or an anxious spouse. It just, they get so lost because the roles are somewhat defined by our culture and they, they absolutely lose track of themselves. And then there's all these rules [00:22:00] and constructs they think have to apply to them that make it almost impossible for them to thrive. And so when it comes down to like, let's look at what you're struggling with as an individual, help you thrive. Even if your partner continues to struggle, help you thrive so that you can get your feet underneath you. And when it comes to like, we have couples that end up getting divorced and it's really, they have some really bad breakdowns. And what I tell them, I said, I want you to understand. When you're coming to work with us, what we want is, even though there's all this stuff going on, I don't want you to leave this marriage shattered. Because it's like, if you leave it shattered, you're, you're in a worse place than you were when you were married. You're broken. So you tend to find another partner. Who is the same as your last one, or maybe just a little bit better than your last one, but that's not very much of an improvement, but it feels good in the moment because when you're shattered, anything above that, boy, that's a relief. And so we see people continually repeating the same type of marriage patterns. [00:23:00] So instead, despite everything that's going on, you continue to strengthen yourself and pull yourself together and give yourself that, you know, that healthy autonomy. And then if you do end up having to get divorced, then you're going to marry up from there. You're not going to marry back to where you were.

[00:23:17] Ian: Right. And, and like we say, a healthy marriage involves, like she said, two healthy, autonomous people. These are two people that kind of know who they are. They, they know their hobbies and interests and they both support each other in those things, right? Because if one person gets subsumed in the other, you no longer have two autonomous individuals, who choose to come together and choose to stay together, right? It's like I'm happy without you But I'm happier with you Like if you

[00:23:45] Ian: go, if you're on a trip for two weeks, I'm going to miss you.

[00:23:48] Ian: I love you. But I'll be okay. Right. I'll be fine. And when you come back, I'll be even more happy that you came back. My life is better. So it's like that autonomy is, is powerful to have [00:24:00] those two, those two individuals that are solid. The synonymy is created in the overlap space between the two autonomous individuals.

[00:24:06] Ian: These are shared interests, shared passion. Sex fits in that category. Should be this synonymy space. These are things like Carol and I are going on walks you know, pretty regularly, we, we, we both really enjoyed the experience of being together and walking together.

[00:24:20] Ian: That's a synonymy space and then harmony. Cause it's kind of a Venn diagram. Harmony is the third circle where there's conflict, but we come up with ways to be able to move through the conflict with peace so that we can maintain that peace. And, and it's a Venn diagram because some piece of the synonymy, there's going to be some stress and we deal a lot of there's a lot of sex and intimacy issues that come in to our office.

[00:24:41] Ian: We have to deal with, right? And so sex is an an, a synonymy, but there's a lot of harmony that has to be built up as well. I'm the high desire partner. I'm the low desire partner. How do we, how do we. Deal with this, right? When we come together, it's great or it's not great or whatever anyway, but it's like the harmony creates peace in and [00:25:00] crosses all the things like sometimes, like, I hate this thing that you do, you know it's, it's so obnoxious. Like I don't like this hobby. I don't like your friends. And so now you've got a harmony space over with the autonomous individual side that needs to be handled. But those three things together, when you have. Autonomy, two autonomous individuals, synonymy, where you're deliberately building that shared space of joy and passion in the middle, and then harmony where everything else, where there's conflict or disagreement, you work through it with peace.

[00:25:27] Ian: So you can move forward. There is so much power in that, in that that approach that allows us to help both the husband and the wife. Cause. You know, a lot of times either husband or wife might insist on where one has to be subsumed into the other. But when we support both wife and husband as autonomous individuals, right?

[00:25:48] Ian: I've seen a lot of women. It was like, I feel erased. It's like, go get a hobby. Do you like volleyball? Go play volleyball. What do you like to do? Go out with your friends, go do something. And your husband will watch the kids go take a night a week and go to do something you enjoy or [00:26:00] vice versa. Right.

[00:26:00] Ian: Husband's like, I just work all the time. I don't do anything. I do everything for my family. And my wife goes out there, girlfriends. I don't have any guy friends. Go, go do some with your guy friends, go bowling, go play, you know, board games or whatever you do, go create that autonomy space, because there's more joy that you bring to the synonymy and the harmony when you're a solid autonomous individual.

[00:26:18] Ian: Anyways, that's, that's sort of a lot of the framework we use when we're working with couples and it's powerful for both men and women together, because we don't want to throw either one of them under the bus.

[00:26:29] Aicila: Those are definitely key, key points in any relationship I've had that's been successful.

[00:26:34] Karyl: When I did a little research group with some young married students at the college here I asked the husbands, you know, how do they handle the conflict in their marriage and, or when their wife is struggling or having a bad day.

[00:26:46] Karyl: And and I was surprised because they said, well, we just tend to not say anything and we swallow it. And then women get really frustrated because it feels like you don't care about my feelings. You don't care to, [00:27:00] or you tell me how to fix it. Like, I'll be honest. My husband has, you know, high functioning autism, you know, I'm going to throw you under the bus

[00:27:07] Karyl: here. And when, when I start struggling, his habit was to say, well, why don't you do this? And I'm thinking, you're not understanding this emotion that I'm trying to connect emotionally,

[00:27:16] Karyl: not, you know,

[00:27:17] Ian: Duh, it's so easy.

[00:27:20] Karyl: But, but I think that that tends to be the thing is that a lot of husbands report that they just don't want to cause any more problems. They don't want to make it worse They don't want to say the wrong thing and it's really it comes down to a lack of skill Almost everything that we struggle with this is a lack of skill. We don't know how to own some of our crap. We don't know how to respond to some of our emotions or, or manage it or work through it. We don't know how to maybe understand and respond to our spouses. And there is always going to be breakdown of behavior. There's going to be crises that come into marriage. I think John Gottman said, I believe he said 69 percent of all conflict in marriage cannot be resolved.

[00:27:57] Karyl: That's a lot. And then there's [00:28:00] another portion of that conflict that is temporary conflict. You think these are the things that come when we have kids, and then they move out, when we have money issues, and then those things go away. And then there's other things that are, you know, crises that are beyond our, our our control.

[00:28:13] Karyl: We can't do anything. They're beyond our control. And and these are those vicissitudes in our life where maybe we get cancer. Maybe there's an accident. Maybe there's, you know, something so cataclysmic that now we have to reshape our relationship and ourselves because we're in a space. Things are coming out of us that we never imagined. So, Being married is such a dynamic experience. And if we just settled down into the space, well, this is how it was when we got married. And this is how it should stay. Then we, we actually stunt our ability to even thrive in life because we keep going back to the past, going back to that reference point.

[00:28:47] Karyl: And we never change that reference reference point.

[00:28:50] Aicila: Wow. Well said. Thank you. What advice, and this is for both or either of you, depending on if you wanna answer what [00:29:00] advice would you give your 18-year-old self?

[00:29:02] Ian: Oh, we, we talked about this. And honestly, the most important, most important advice I would give my 18 year old self is it's going to be okay. There's going to be some really painful things that happened. You're going to be fine. Just trust the process, move forward. You're not perfect. That's fine. The people around you aren't perfect.

[00:29:19] Ian: That's fine. You're going to be okay.

[00:29:22] Karyl: That. And I think it's very similar to what I would say to myself that I look back at my 18 year old self and I look at all of the things that happened after that because of how I believed, you know, how, what I believed in myself and I would tell myself, you don't be perfect. You don't need to be perfect, be brutally honest and be okay with your weaknesses, with your inabilities and all of that.

[00:29:41] Karyl: I used to apologize for even being alive and felt that I always needed to try to be more perfect to qualify for somebody. And I had no, I really honestly had no identity. I was like, my role is now wife. My role is now mother. And I remember I can't remember when it was, but I went on this choir tour with [00:30:00] these retired a lot of retired individuals.

[00:30:03] Karyl: And we went to Europe for one week to sing and they're all like, they've all had their life. They've had their careers and now they're moving into that next stage. And I was one of the younger individuals. And I remember one person at the end of it came up to me and said, I really don't know who you are. You've been talking and everything you talk about is your husband and your kids. You've never said anything about you. Who are you? What are you? And I'm like, I have no idea.

[00:30:26] Karyl: This is why autonomy is so valuable. I love being married to Ian. I am such a mess. All of my messy bits come out right now and he gets the worst of me, but I'm allowed to work through that.

[00:30:38] Karyl: I'm allowed to be my full self. And that's the thing. Don't look for the perfect partner who is never going to make a mistake. That's not the safest person for you. Or who requires you to be perfect, look for somebody where your messy bits are still okay, and you don't lose the love or the respect of that person.

[00:30:55] Karyl: They love your messy bits and you love theirs and you're okay. And it's not about staying in those messy [00:31:00] bits, but it's about having the freedom to grow out of them

[00:31:03] Ian: Right.

[00:31:03] Karyl: support and with

[00:31:04] Ian: Right. Well, cause I, we also get each other's best bits, right? We get to see the triumphs and the joys and the shared experiences that are amazing. And so that's also a huge part of it. It's like when you, when you get married, you get that whole gamut and we want life to just be the best bits, but you also get the really, really deep, messy bits.

[00:31:21] Ian: And marriage is really embracing both sides of that, which is why I'm like, it's going to be okay. You're going to be fine. Like be okay. Be who you are. You're okay. Everyone else is struggling too. And that's fine. Just, you know, You know, uh, that's why I think that's really powerful. Kind of an idea is that that's what relationships are is the messy bits and the best bits all kind of woven together in one experience. And you walk it together. It's fine.

[00:31:46] Aicila: Yeah. That's beautiful.

[00:31:48] Ian: and that makes a lot of difference.

[00:31:51] Aicila: I mean, we

[00:31:52] Ian: Yeah. Yeah,

[00:31:54] Aicila: Gingers unite.

[00:31:56] Ian: Mm hmm.

[00:31:57] Aicila: what's something you're excited about in your [00:32:00] business? Something's coming up or a new offering or

[00:32:03] Karyl: Oh, we've got a couple of things that we're working, on. we're working we're working on a podcast and then we're also working on a neurodivergent relationship lab because Ian has Asperger's or, you know, level one autism and and then he also has two children with autism and his father is autistic and, you know, there just seems to be autism everywhere.

[00:32:25] Karyl: And what we looked at was there is so many struggles with communication and connection that 80 percent of neurodiverse marriages end in divorce. Which is huge and so the things that we're learning about this and what we can, what we hopefully will learn in this lab, we'll be able to actually minimize that and even translate out towards just neurotypical marriages because it really does come down, mostly down to this miscommunication, which is so, so brutal in a neurodivergent marriage.

[00:32:59] Karyl: So that's one of the things that [00:33:00] we're working on and we're excited about and and we actually are starting that next week, so.

[00:33:05] Ian: Yeah.

[00:33:05] Ian: And, and the podcast, it's going to be called The Husband's Edge. And it's going to be kind of talking more about men's mental health and how men can show up better in their relationships and, and, and help themselves and help their wives and, and all this kind of stuff. So we're going to be really focusing on a lot of that and and talking to a lot of people that will be able to bring some unique perspectives.

[00:33:26] Ian: We're pretty excited about that kind of in process right now. Okay.

[00:33:30] Aicila: Yeah, you know how I feel about podcasts. For folks who are listening how do they learn more? Follow you get in touch.

[00:33:39] Karyl: Well, they can go visit our website, which is marriagebythefire. com or they can, I think we can leave the, our Ian's email and they can reach out to Ian. We have some social media, but we're just starting to build that up. So I,

[00:33:54] Ian: We're Gen Xers. We're, we're not, we don't really do social media much. And so this is, we didn't grow up with it. We're still kind of learning [00:34:00] it. So it's still in the early stages, not quite ready to be fully engaged with, but emails great. Cause I'm Gen X.

[00:34:07] Aicila: Yeah, that's lovely.

[00:34:10] Ian: huh.

[00:34:11] Aicila: Well, thank you both so much for taking your time to talk to me and to share what you're up to with my listeners. I really appreciate it.

[00:34:17] Karyl: Well, thank you for letting us come on. It's been a fun experience and I've really loved having this discussion.

[00:34:22] Ian: Yep. Yep. And I know you didn't mention at the beginning, but we've known each other for 30 years now. So,

[00:34:28] Ian: uh, been

[00:34:29] Aicila: It's true.

[00:34:29] Ian: a long time. So it's been a lot of fun to to be on this and, and enjoy the friendship in a different angle.

[00:34:36] Aicila: Yeah, it really has been. Thank you both so much.

[00:34:38] Karyl: welcome.

[00:34:39] Aicila: Don't forget their useful acronym ASH. Autonomy, Synonymy, and Harmony. Three elements of a healthy relationship. If you found these insights helpful, visit marriagebythefire. com for more resources and personalized guidance. Coming up next week, join me for an illuminating conversation with Dr. Karen Moore as we explore colorism, [00:35:00] healing, and her mission to empower dark skinned women through her organization, I Am the Color of Beautiful Global.

[00:35:06] Aicila: Thank you for tuning in to Business as Unusual. Remember, in this ever evolving world of modern business, it's not about fitting in, it's about standing out. See you next time. Stay curious, stay innovative, and always keep it unusual.