Align Structure with Strategy for Success with Meg Thomas Crosby

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: [00:00:00] welcome to Business as Unusual, the podcast Exploring innovative Strategies and unconventional Practices for success. Meet Meg, co-founder of People Cap Advisors, where she helps high growth companies scale sustainably. A former Google HR m and a leader with 35 plus global acquisitions under her belt. She's a trusted advisor to private equity firms, CEOs and boards. Meg's forthcoming book running the gauntlet, proven Strategies for High Growth Leaders, was released in April of 2025.

Welcome to the show.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Thank you for having me. Happy to be here.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: I am such a, a geek for structure. I was really excited about someone who was like, we need to talk more about how structure aligns with strategy. 'cause I feel like that is,

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: That's my love Language structure is my love language. Yes.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: 'cause it's, it's often conceptual rather than practical. And that's where things get kind of messy, I think, is people have great ideas, but. I don't necessarily have the tactics to execute on

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yes.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: And structure is a lot of the key to that, and especially innovators. I think they, they [00:01:00] get the, part of why they're innovators is they, they push against the grain. And so finding that balance between the right amount of structure that they can be amplified.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yes, that's absolutely true.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: One of the things you mentioned is the importance of context. A lot of times leaders will fail to consider their context or like what stage of growth they're in, uh, when they're making certain types of decisions. And, and how to understand the vision and values within that. Could, can you speak a little bit to that?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Sure. So, uh, we. I put together several years ago in our consulting practice, um, a, a framework for understanding growth and how to scale an organization through and across four stages of growth. And that's really what our book is about, is, is about this framework that we call the growth gauntlet because growth is really hard and, um, growing a business is.

Is very similar to the stages of development for a human. You've gotta be able to crawl before you walk. And so [00:02:00] there are stages where you're building that infrastructure in your organization. You're building that, uh, muscle memory and some competencies, organizational competencies to be able to handle, more complex in your organization, more people, more transactions, you know, more clients, more markets, all more, more, more. And, and so, um, when we talk about context, we want to understand where a business is in their stage of growth so that we can help to recommend what's next. Let me give you a, a concrete example about that.

Recently, I had to help hire A-A-C-F-O candidate. We're filling a CFO position interviewing CFO candidates. And the team that was doing the work came across a, a candidate who had a, just a stellar resume. And everyone agreed, this is the best candidate we've gotta bring this person on. This is the best resume we've seen.

And I said, well, that's, that's true. This is, this is a great resume, [00:03:00] but let's consider the context and what we're hiring this person for. We, uh, are not going to build a huge finance department around this person. This person is coming from a place where they are used to having a lot of people to do the work.

They're used to managing a lot of people. We're talking about bringing somebody in who's going to actually close the books every month themselves, have a team of about three people. Is this person going to be able to roll up their sleeves and do that work? And so while this is a great person and a great resume, it does not fit our context and our stage of growth.

We need to look to find somebody who is earlier stage and who's used to doing the work, not managing it. Does that make sense?

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Right. Oh yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense. And I, I feel like I've seen that demonstrated frequently. And the other, the reverse is true as well. If you're a, if you're a, an organization that needs someone who knows how to manage people and you get somebody that doesn't have that experience, it can be equally problematic.

'cause they're getting in everybody's way trying to do [00:04:00] all the things, instead of letting their team do the things that they know how to do.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Another place we see that often is, and you and I were talking about it earlier, the founder personalities, the founder of a company, tends to be very creative, tends to push against structure and boundaries, tends to be kind of an inspirational leader, um, and, and somebody who is a creator.

And so once the business gets to a point where the proof of concept has been met. And we're trying to now replicate, a product that we serve to customers productize that offering and make sure that we have consistency and predictability in the business and build operations to scale. That person who leads with creativity and emotion is not always the right person to lead in this next stage of growth.

So, uh, sometimes it can work where the founder stays in the CEO position and hires, uh, a chief operating officer who has a lot of [00:05:00] experience adding process to an organization and building those systems and scaling them. But sometimes it doesn't work. Sometimes the, those folks who are the, the founders, sometimes we call them later in the process, the chief distraction officer, because they're so bent on new things, what's new and what's next? It's hard for them to focus on, let's take what we've already done and make it consistent over time, because that's a different skillset. And so that, that requires a different leader. And at every stage of growth across the four, the CEO job description is really different.

And so very rarely, I think it's, it's less than 25% of founders make it, uh, all through all four stages of growth as the CEO.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Right. Well, and and it's, and it, it's a, it's not just aptitude and skills, it's also interest. Like

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Absolutely.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: they don't like that established experience. They, they want to constantly be forging into new [00:06:00] territories and, and we need people to do

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: may not need them in that position at that time. I think that was one of the things when we were first started talking about you and you coming on the show and talking about what you're doing is how to handle that. When you have essentially a Chief distraction officer. How do you honor what they've brought to the organization and what they're doing, and also kind of move into that place of organizational structure and growth?

Do you have any tactics or tips that you have for that?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah, I mean I think that's where our model, our framework comes in really handy. Because it we're able to put that in front of a leader and say, this is what growth looks like. And this is where you are on this map. You are moving out of that startup phase that you did so well. And you're moving into an operationalized phase, and this is what the CEO job description looks like.

There's a scorecard for a CEO in the operationalized phase. And if you get really down to brass tacks with people, they will often self-select out of, of that position [00:07:00] because that's not- exactly what you're saying- that's not their gift, that's not their strength. That feels like. You know, pure torture to be focused on building operations over running down new and exciting endeavors.

And I think there's always a place for innovation in organizations. In fact, you know, it's the old slogan, innovate or Die. But we have to think about what innovation looks like at each stage of growth. Is it the primary focus like it is in the startup, you know, phase No. As we move through, it becomes, in many cases, structured innovation.

Um, we, we can look at innovation coming from incremental innovation coming from the front lines. How do we do things more efficiently, more effectively? How do we serve our clients better? And then, you know, blue, blue Ocean thinking innovation, which may come from, you know, a group of people within a more mature organization. It's always present, but it's not necessarily led entirely by the CEO.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: [00:08:00] Yeah, think that's a big part of it is that, you know, when you're small and scrappy, you have a lot of, uh, agility,

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: And then, and, and so it's that compromise as you grow. You maybe don't have the same level of agility. And you have the stability to follow through further, to get more done. It's really understanding which scope you're in.

That makes a lot of sense to me. Do you typically work with the leaders or leadership team? Like when you guys come in, what's your what? What's your primary setup?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah, so do we work with companies in two different ways? We often engage with private equity groups when they are about to make an investment in an organization. And so we'll come in and help do what we call leadership team due diligence. We'll come in and evaluate the team and start to think about, what is this? What is it gonna take for this organization to grow once you have deployed this capital and that capital acts as a catalyst for growth to the next level. Do you have [00:09:00] the team that can get you there to this next level. Or do you have people you're, you're gonna need to add, particularly as you're moving outta that startup phase?

The, the things that we see most often are adding, for example, a professional CFO, uh, a, a VP of sales who can build a sales team, a sales organizations, uh, a customer support organization, those types of things. We make recommendations around that. And, and help just put together a plan for how the company can grow and scale post investment.

But we also work directly with CEOs of high growth companies. And a lot of times they reach out to us when they're stuck. A perfect example is, uh, I'm, I'm actually working with a client right now who has grown a lot and, you know, they're over a hundred employees and they have a part-time HR person who only really does, uh, sort of you know, comp and payroll and benefits. And so they're in a place now where they really need talent management. And so we're helping them [00:10:00] to figure out what is, what does your organization need? How can we build an HR function that, that meets the stage of growth that you're in so that you can evolve to this next level.

Um, so we, we try to solve problems, uh, with, and, and work primarily with, um, CEOs and leadership teams. We work with HR folks as part of that. And then, um, we do a lot of engagement surveys. So, uh, and sort of making sure we have the voice of the frontline employee in everything we do. We wanna understand what's going on at the far reaches of the, of the organization so we can make change in the most practical way.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: That sounds wise. I feel like that, that, that gives the most, the broadest scope of understanding. Right.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: So. What does success look like for you?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Well, um, for us, I think it looks like having, uh, our, having our companies that we work with be successful and [00:11:00] navigating the, the chaos of growth and moving from one stage of growth to the next without, uh, without getting too bruised and battered along the way. It's really fun and gratifying. I think there are a couple of companies that we've worked with for 10 years or more. And to see the arc of their growth over that time period and to see the way our influence has played out and, you know, working with are coachable, who are eager to learn what's next and to grow to that next stage is, is really gratifying. And to see,

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah, I get that. What advice would you give your 18-year-old self?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: oh,

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: I.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: bi.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: I feel that. Like you're fine. Just do it.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Oh yeah, that's easy. Maybe you're looking for something more work related.[00:12:00]

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: No, no, that's fantastic.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: You know, I, um, I'm pretty content with the way life has turned out, so I don't have a whole lot of regrets, I think, or, or anything like that. I, I do have, um. 20 something year old children, uh, and one, one teenager left. And so the advice I give, I like to give people is that, you know, life is such a journey and, um, you know, have a plan, but don't be so, uh, stuck on your plan that you miss opportunities that that come by.

Um, be be able to, to grab onto something and go do it, even if it wasn't exactly what you planned on doing. 'cause I think for me, those. Sharp turns and those, uh, opportunities have been, have really made the journey worth it. I mean, those have been the most exciting things that have happened to me. Not anything I planned, I never, nothing I planned, ever panned out, but all the, the other great things that happened that, that [00:13:00] made it, you know, an exciting life.

So.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: I feel that. I used to meditate a lot and I, I had a meditation instructor who, when I was going on a solitary retreat, he said, all right, we're gonna make your your plan. I was like, all right, so we've made our plan. And he goes, and that's, he goes, so you don't, you're not necessarily gonna stick to it. But if you don't have something to deviate from, you don't have any place to discover.

And I was just like, oh, that's a very meditative zen kind of thing. I, I think about that a lot. It's like you have to have a plan. So you have some kind of direction. But that allows you to like get inspired to deviate. So it's intended not to be followed exactly. But also you're supposed to follow it.

It's like that feels, that feels about right the way life works.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah. I'm also, you know, a just inherently kind of a, a connector and a collector of people. I love people. And I love all sorts of people, and I think that natural networking tendency has also made all the difference in my [00:14:00] life. Just. Um,

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Hmm.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: outside of my comfort zone and of my bubble. And it seems like the opportunities that have come to me, um, I would never have predicted where they would've come from.

You know, I think you can't know where that next opportunity is. And so networking and, and getting out of your comfort zone is really important.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah, I, I agree. I feel the same that so much of my life is the result of wonderful

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yes.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: to showing up in a, in a way that was never, never planned, is it, or anticipated, and yet created so many beautiful things, both personally and professionally.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yes,

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: I

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: go to lunch and coffee with anyone who asks and figure out what they're all about. And, uh, learn what their value is in the world. And, and then you never know.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yep. Uh, another thing you talked about that i, I super love is that you wish more people would ruthlessly align their structure with their strategy. Do you have any, uh, tips or thoughts or ways you wanna share about that?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah, I think we can all learn, uh, [00:15:00] and, and I, that's probably advice I need to take for myself as well. But I think, um, I think if you want to successfully achieve anything, you do need to have some structure related to it. And, and I think about it in terms of accountability structure. Uh, so, you know, if I, I think about it in terms of health, that's probably the best example.

If you want to be healthy, you have got to do lots of things. You know, you've gotta focus on your, if you have a New Year's resolution, say, I'm gonna, I'm gonna get healthy this year. There's not just one thing to do. You've gotta eat better. You've gotta drink more water. You've gotta sleep better.

You gotta exercise both cardio and lift weights. I mean, you know, your mental health. I mean there, there's so many things that go into an overall health profile. And the same is true with any company. And, and our model is based around what we call the six imperatives. And there are [00:16:00] six levers that leaders can pull to make change in their organization. And, and those are, we start at the top with, uh, with your focus, sharpen focus and then strengthen leadership, calibrate culture, elevate talent, amplify communication and align structures. And I think that the structure piece is. So important. You've gotta, you have your strategy and then you build structures to get there.

And when I think about health in my own life, I think about, okay, I go to the gym, you know, few times a week. It's just part of my routine. Um, you know, we eat in and eat broccoli this many nights, you know, or whatever.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Right.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: moderate our alcohol consumption. We, you know. Make sure we get good sleep and have good sleep hygiene.

There are all these things and, and just like with, with the business, you never, you never actually get there. I mean, you, you have to be always conscious of these things. There are [00:17:00] daily decisions, daily habits, and structure that you put in place. That helped you to achieve these benefits over the long term.

And so I think for organizations it's important to have these kinds of structures in place, so that you make sure your culture is what you want it to be. Making sure that you are, um, that there's a goal setting framework so everybody knows what kind of work they should be focused on. Uh, that there are, uh, systems in place for accounting and finance, so that.

Um, your coffers don't run dry while you're trying to do all this work. There are, um, sub systems for hiring people and interviewing people and get, bringing talent into the organization systems for, um, the way products are delivered, created, and delivered. All these things, all of those structures ensure that there's, uh, predictability but also distributed leadership.

I mean, the, the way that structure really [00:18:00] becomes, uh, really brings an organization together in, in so far as if one person in the structure steps out, the structure still exists. So you are not dependent on one leader or one, uh, point of failure, a single point of failure. You have structures in place to account for any, anything that you know might happen or go wrong, or an opportunity that might come by that you wanna chase.

So I think aligning those structures with, with your strategy is, is so critical.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah. No, and I think the health one is a great example because most of us know if you have to think about it, if it's, if it's five 30 in the morning and your alarm goes off and you're like, am I going to the gym? of the time the answer is no, but, but if you are just really clear, this is what happens.

I get up and I go, and it's a decision you've already made. It's part of your

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: or structure. Then the likelihood that you'll go, unless there's a very big reason not to the bad snowstorm or you're feeling sick or something, that's a, [00:19:00] it's just more likely that you'll actually do the things that you have identified as being important or necessary for your overall health and

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: that's a really great analogy. What do you see as unusual about how you do this or approach this work?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Well, I think it's been interesting. Certainly there have been organizational maturity models that have come before us, but I don't think, uh, anyone has, or at least in our research, we have not seen someone, you know, lay out kind of the prescription for growth and, and organizational growth and development.

So our model is less a look back, but more of, of here's how we, what we prescribe at each stage of growth that your organizations should look look like. Here's what your culture, uh, should look like. Here's what you should be thinking about with, you know, here's when you need to make sure you have a goal setting framework in place.

Here's when you might, uh, begin to have, uh, an HR talent management function in place. [00:20:00] So our, our model is. I think more prescriptive and helping leaders to, to see what's next so that they can plan for it, uh, rather than to be reactive. And so that's, that's what I hope.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: that's, I mean, I think that's great. It's always, in my opinion, in my observation and experience, much better to anticipate E even if you, you can't anticipate everything, but you can give yourself a little more leeway for dealing with the bumps and the changes that come, come along.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: I also think that one of the things we, we do well is to be really honest, upfront, with folks to say that, hey, you, your skills aren't necessarily gonna be what's needed at each stage of growth. So if we can just admit that on the front end, we can be be really clear about where to plug you in so that you are both valued and you are you.

Feel like you're, you're adding value and we value you. We wanna be sure [00:21:00] that people kind of find that sweet spot. But I think as, as people work in different types of organizations, you naturally gravitate towards where your strengths are. Some people are builders, some people are maintainers, some people are process driven people, and those are needed at each stage.

It just is a, a matter of where and in what role. And so if people can really be. Self-aware and, uh, understand that there's a period of time where there they will be essential for the organization, but then the organization will naturally move on to a different stage where that might not be necessary for them.

Then I think, I think that's really helpful to people. It's not, it's, it's like dating. It's not you, it's me. It's not, it's not

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: personal. It's just let's figure out where you're, where you're best suited and then we can. Opportunity for you, which may not be at this company.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Right? I think that's the alternate title for your. Book instead of running the gauntlet.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Yeah.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: [00:22:00] you, it's me. There we go. What inspired you or, or you and Howard to, to create this, this process? I mean, I, I, lots of people have been leaders in organizations. Lots of people have acquired, uh, been part of acquisitions, but they didn't decide to come up with a, a, a way of naming the process and a framework to, to support people. So there's something in you that it inspired that behavior or choice?

What, what was that?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Well, I mean, part, part of it's just I am, I'm kind of a, as we're talking about, I'm a process person. I love structure. So, um, we had been doing this work for 10 years and we were, we were actually in San Francisco. It was a caffeine fueled in and out burger night in a hotel and we were had fresh off meeting with a client and we're doing some, some thought work around a particular project and just [00:23:00] we felt like we were seeing the same patterns over and over again.

And we really wanted to codify those mostly for ourselves so that we would have a framework. When we went into companies that we could make sure that we were, uh, kind of hitting the universe of things we wanted to talk about. And, um, so we started with that, developing the six imperatives, and that became our internal rubric for evaluating organizations.

But as we worked with more and more high growth companies, we started to see that the six imperatives shifted depending on the stage of growth. And so that we started again, developed internally, but then working with clients, people found it really helpful. I have a good friend who, I've never actually worked for or with, you know, in a client relationship, but he was, uh, perusing our website and he called me and he's like, oh my God, I just downloaded this model that you guys have.

He is a CEO. He is like, I'm, I'm using it for my strategic planning. I have a copy tape to my desk. It's so helpful. [00:24:00] This is just, I can trace our company's journey on this. It's, this is so clear, you know, and, um. And he's been, he was an early champion and so he was like, you need to write this book. And so we got, we just got a lot of support from folks who the model resonated with to, to say, you need to just get it out there.

So, um, so we had fun. It was a fun journey. Um, really, really enjoyed the process. Learned a lot in the process, but, um, it, as my mother says, it will be a nice thing to have done.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah, I get that.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Anything challenging. It was challenging, but it was fun

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah,

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: it.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: that makes sense. What are other things, obviously your book just came out. Are there other things happening in your business or is that the, the thing you're most excited about right now?

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: I mean, we're just having so much fun, uh, going and, you know, being guests on, on podcasts like this, which is great. Um, doing some writing for a fast company and uh, some other publications and just. Excited to kind of get the word [00:25:00] out and working and continuing to work with our clients and, and always excited to have new clients as well and connecting with people who, uh, are interested in, in this work.

So that's been a lot of fun.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Yeah. That's awesome. for folks that are listening, how do they learn more? Follow you, get in touch.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Sure. We have a website which is www.peoplecap.com. Our contact information is on there. We'd love for folks to follow us on LinkedIn. I'm Meg Thomas Crosby on LinkedIn, and Howard Cleveland is my co-author and business partner. And we have a people cap page on LinkedIn as well.

So, uh, and, and our email address and Calendly link are all on our website. So love for folks to reach out and connect.

bau--she-they-_1_08-15-2025_093334: Thanks. Thank you so much for joining me today. I really appreciate it's.

meg-crosby--she-her-_1_08-15-2025_103333: Thank you. I enjoyed, enjoyed the conversation.

Thank you for tuning into business as unusual, remember, in this ever evolving world of modern business, it's not about fitting in.

It's about standing out. See you next [00:26:00] time. Stay curious, stay innovative, and always keep it unusual.